Generating A Perpetual Traffic Loop w/ Anthony Kirby

Uncategorized Aug 07, 2020




In this episode, we sit down with marketing expert Anthony Kirby.

Anthony is a two-time author, experienced marketer and full of wisdom. In our discussion, he shared thoughts around topics such as:

  • How to generate a perpetual traffic loop that is both profitable to your business and valuable to the consumer
  • What steps to take in order to create a truly irresistible offer in your business
  • Why you should always look to build a warm audience before presenting any offer

And so much more. 

👉 To learn more about Anthony, head to

👉 If you’d like to explore any further training, then feel free to check out our range of free courses here:


Ben Donovan  0:02 
Awesome. Well, welcome to the show today, guys. I've got my friend Anthony Kirby with me here all the way from Australia. Welcome to the show today, Anthony.

Anthony Kirby  0:10 
Thanks, mate. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it, Ben.

Ben Donovan  0:13 
Good to have you on and I love to intro our podcast episodes by the little bit of an icebreaker, a couple of icebreaker questions if you're willing and up for that.

Anthony Kirby  0:22 

Ben Donovan  0:23 
Good stuff. I'm just going to pick a couple of the ones that I normally do. The first one is, do you have a favorite quote?

Anthony Kirby  0:29 
Yes. And it's my own shameless plug for myself here, which is "Always leave people better than you find them".

Ben Donovan  0:36 
Nice. I like it, really good.

Anthony Kirby  0:39 
It's a good mantra for life, I think and business, of course.

Ben Donovan  0:42 
Absolutely, for sure. And then the second one I always find intriguing, if you could time travel, and go forwards or backwards. Where would you go to, when would you go to and why?

Anthony Kirby  0:55 
I would go to World War Two. I think that'd be a fascinating period. of time, and I'd be intrigued. I mean, right now we're recording this and COVID-19 is a huge deal. As many people are going through the same around the world, I think as a global economy, to go through something and get to the other side would be really interesting. But I also think, what I'm observing right now is the community spirit that has probably been forgotten for a long time that my grandparents told me about, is now well and truly alive. And I think it would be fascinating to go back and see that from a World War Two perspective with no social media sharing the news. You're relying on it through tidbits or the mail that comes back three months later from someone on the front line. I think that'd just be fascinating.

Ben Donovan  1:41 
Yeah, totally. That would be a fascinating thought because, like you say, that community aspect that we've got now you imagine it would be even more extreme, you know, back then. So yeah, that's amazing ground. So good stuff. Well, tell us a little bit about what you do, Anthony, and educate the audience on what we're going to talk about today.

Anthony Kirby  1:58 
Yeah, perfect. Well, first of all, Everyone calls me Kirby. So you want them to refer to me as Kirby. And essentially what I do is I help service-based businesses so that's coaches, consultants, financial advisors, I help them simplify sales and marketing, which ultimately means that they get more leads with less stress and more sales with less sales skills, and make it very easy for them to fill their calendar with clients they'd love to work with.

Ben Donovan  2:22 
So good. That's right up our street simplifying is always a good option. And more sales definitely is a great option too. So that's good. Tell us a little bit about your origin story, Kirby - when you started, how you started, how you got into this business, we'd love to hear a bit about that.

Anthony Kirby  2:38 
Yes, sort of started by accident. A little bit foolishly, if I could be honest, I was working in a sort of corporate, professional, you know, business, and I was a Sales Manager. And of course, you know, you're managing a team and I was successful. And I enjoyed it. And then I went to a Tony Robbins conference, and I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world to have ever gone to a Tony Robbins conference and felt like you could smash down some brick walls. And I was standing there and I was looking at him on the stage. And you know, there are four and a half thousand people in Sydney, and you're in Australia. And I'm watching him. And I'm looking at my mate who's with me, who's actually my brother-in-law now. And I said I reckon I could do this. And he just kind of went, yeah. And then the guys who are sitting in front of me turned around on the second day, and they said, What do you do? And I pointed out the stage and I said, I'm gonna do that. And I had it in my mind that I was gonna be the next Tony Robbins. Now, just to give you some context on this, this is the foolish part. At the time, I got tickets to the Tony Robbins event as a father's day present. And my son at the time was probably out about three or four months old. Okay, so I've gone to this thing and I come home from that remortgage our family home, quit my full-time job, which was paying me multiple six figures of income. With no business plan, no idea what internet marketing was. Just this concept of well, I just want to go and help people. I want to change the world. And so I quit my job. Now, that was not the smartest move. And I would certainly not recommend that.

Ben Donovan  4:07 
Yeah, I was going to say, disclaimer, don't do this.

Anthony Kirby  4:09 
Do not do this. Learn from this. Make sure you've got a plan and make sure you actually know what you're doing. So I spent a few months after that kind of messing around looking at the news feed, and getting all disillusioned with how many coaches and consultants there were out there and thinking, I can't do this. And you know, as any business does, it puts you right against the things you need to work on in your own life and your own mindset. And so I broke through all of that, made 300 phone calls, sold 40 something tickets to my first ever event for a $297 ticket, and held a sales training event. And from there, became sort of the go-to sales trainer for the specific niche that I served here in Australia, which was residential building companies and built a seven-figure training business which then led to people signing on. How have you done this? You know, you made it look pretty, pretty simple. You know, if only they knew. And that led me to kind of writing out for a friend of mine on a piece of paper, kind of like the mini-steps. And that's when he said to me and these were the magic words he said, "You're like a wizard with this stuff; you make it seem so easy." And so from there, everything has been based around me being able to draw it on a napkin. So if I can't draw on a napkin, it's too complex. Yeah, right. And that's how I approached the whole thing. And so my expert blueprint, as I now call it, is basically three sectors or three sections that you need to look at in your business. And everything's built around that. And that's basically where I am now. So now I've got a couple of products. I've got a free course called the "Expert Blueprint", aptly named. I've just released the book which came from the printer today, watching this on video, you'll see it. And essentially, that's what I teach. I teach that to entrepreneurs all over the world now. And that's really fun.

Ben Donovan  5:55 
Great. Must be quite a good feeling to get that book plan on your desk.

Anthony Kirby  6:00 
This is the second book. And this time around, I was really confident. I thought, "Wow, I've really done a good job on this one". I was proud of it. It's got lots of sketches in it, and it's very much like, you know, sort of unique, and then I opened it up and I realized, all that spell checking, you know, you never quite get it right. This is a good case of imperfect action, you know, on page 107. I've forgotten to delete one of the notes that I put in as a reminder to myself. Luckily, I got one copy printed before I printed a whole carton of these. I picked it up and I changed it today. So we're good to go now. Yes, that's really good, Ben.

Ben Donovan  6:36 
Lessons from an author, I like it. So obviously, a lot of our listeners will be entrepreneurs that will either own brands or wanting to run their own businesses, and traffic and clients is obviously the lifeblood of any business. Obviously your book about being an expert, I think a brand owner would still have that - whether it's physical products, whether it's service-based, whatever their industry, they're gonna want to be positioned as the expert, either expert brand or expert coach, expert whatever that looks like. And so you've obviously got some traffic methodology around how people can get started with that. Can you give us like a top-level view of what that looks like, from your perspective - generating leads, generating traffic, and so on?

Anthony Kirby  7:21 
Yeah, let me literally walk through the blueprint in the simplest form that I possibly can for the brevity of this podcast. So first of all, let me start by saying that the biggest mistake I see is that people are making offers to people who don't know them. So if you're new, or if you've been established for a while, but you're not really established outside of what I would call your inner circle, you know, you're at your existing networks, and you're then pushing money into paid advertising to go out there to the world, the greater world and get known. And you're making an offer for them to buy. It's very unlikely that you're going to get someone to buy in, you're going to be wasting the money. So my number one rule, my Golden Rule, is only to make an offer to an engaged audience, People who know like, trust you, right? It doesn't have to be all three of those, but it has to be one of those.

Now, the simplest way to do that is to forget what you know, and go to YouTube, find a video that's the highest performing video in your niche or market. And look at the comments. I'm not interested in the video, I'm interested in the comments. Look at the comments and look at the questions that are unanswered from the video. So if the videos had a million views or 500,000 views, there's going to be a couple of thousand comments generally. And there's always comments in there that would say, "Hey, Ben, great video, but..." Right? And it's a bit after the "but" that I'm interested in because that's an unmet need. And if you just list all of those out, and this is where the research comes in, if you spend five hours doing this exercise, you'll be set for life. You get, you know, five or 10 awesome pieces of content, awesome pieces of content, and you go on record. Awesome value videos that other people would charge money for. And you release those to an audience and then you show it to a cold audience with no pitch.

So I would say, "Hey, it's Anthony Kirby", or you'd say, "Hey, it's Ben Donovan". And today I want to teach you about ABC. And you would just give, and I'm talking, like, just go for it. So to the point where they're like, I bought something for $600. And it didn't even cover that. That's the kind of value.. And then they instantly go, wow, you know, Can I like curse slightly? I won't curse actually, because that'll spoil your iTunes writing. So I call this the holy ** factor. Yeah. But you want, the intent that we want here is that someone watches that piece of cold content, and they get curious and they start to click around because they don't know you and they go, "Who is this person? Are they legit?" And then they go to your social media feed or your website or Google you. And you've already got the five to 10 pieces of material. And they go holy **, where has this person been hiding the answer and all of my questions? These are awesome people, and they will bulk consume your content.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. I call this perpetual traffic loop. From there on Facebook, for example, or also on LinkedIn, Google, you can do it with all of them. And the good thing is, if you get stuck with this, go to Google and type it in, they've all got help files because they want you to buy their adverts. They make it very simple to learn this stuff. You would go and create what I call a warm audience. And it's only people who engaged a certain percentage with the videos. So if you've got a video that's five minutes long, you don't want to advertise to people who saw three seconds, they're not engaged. Yeah, you want to advertise to people who've watched 25, 50, 75% of that video. And the only thing you want to advertise is what I refer to as the logical right next step. And the logical right next step is usually a lead magnet.

And the lead magnet, the easy way to decide what the lead magnet is, is to answer this question. If you could give the client a magic pill, what would it solve for them? What would the magic pill resolve? If you can answer that question, that's your lead magnet. Yeah, very simple, very straightforward, but it works. So now you've put a lead magnet in front of them. And you've said, "Hey, you've seen my videos? Now, I want you to take this next step offer". And it's the logical next step. And this can be a low ticket or free. Then once they've taken that, you want to show them a piece of bridge content, I call it. Now bridge content is not an offer. It's not a sale, it's more value that leads them logically in their mind from where you've met them with the lead magnet to where they want to be. And you show them how they get there through a proven process, right? And if you look at old school marketing, they call this a unique mechanism. And the unique mechanism is where if I say "Hey, I've got a method called the potential traffic loop", and my competitors are saying, "Hey, I'll show you how to get more leads". Which one sounds more curiosity-building?

Ben Donovan  11:59 
Yeah. of course the method for sure.

Anthony Kirby  12:01 
Yeah, so people want to know what it is that instantly opens up that question of what's that? And that's what you want your bridge content to do you want them to say, well what is that process, which then leads them to a phone call or appointments or what however it is that you do it in your business or visit and then that leads you to a sales conversation where you find out about them, you deliver more value, and they say, "How do I work with you, Ben? Because you've been so helpful from start to finish, and I just want to be in your world", and that's where the sales are. I call that the reverse sales method where they ask you to buy instead of you asking them to buy, it's that simple.

Ben Donovan  12:34 
Yeah, it's a dream result and this is it, man. This is good guys. This is a modern-day marketing masterclass. You know, because I think marketing has changed right? The opportunity to offer offers to a cold audience and make profitable sales is not really there anymore in 99% of markets. And so I think what you said about never making an offer to a cold audience is a principle that every brand owner, business owner, Coach Expert anybody should have and actually that cold audience has to be about like you said, is building that value first. And so in terms of yet next steps for if someone's just getting started with this right, the very first start, what would you say? Like the first step for them is it a case of making sure they improve their offer is improving their advertising? What would you say is that first step for a beginner?

Anthony Kirby  13:24 
Well, let's do an audit. Let's give people a five key audit here. So I mean, there's a million other things I could talk about here before you go and create products and services and you know, making sure that it aligns to what you want from your life, first of all, you know, like you don't want to go and build a business selling one-on-one coaching if you want to go live on the beach in Koh Samui, it's not gonna work, right? It's gonna be incongruence. So first of all, think about that. But in terms of any offer that you're making, now an offer doesn't have to be paid product or service. An offer is "Hey, watch my video", an offer is "Hey, download my lead magnets", an offer is "Go to my store". That's all an offer. And there are five things that offer has to happen. Number one, it has to be desired. If you put an offer out there saying, "Hey, buy my, you know, right now. Hey, buy tickets to Spain". No one's gonna take your tickets to Spain because you can't get there. Okay? So there's no desire. I mean, there's probably desire, but there's no ability to satisfy that desire. Yeah. So number one, it has to be desired. If there's no desire, you're going to more likely to lose.

Second thing, it has to be distinctive. And what I mean by that is it has to feel different to whatever everything else they've seen, heard or tried. So as a good question, a good question to ask yourself is, based on the client that you've got in your mind that you want to serve, "what have they seen heard or tried already?" And how do you then need to combat that so that you come across as distinctive? That's the second thing your offer needs.

The third thing it has to do is offer them help. When they see your headline, your hook, your paragraph, they read your story, they watch your video sales letter, walk in your shop, whatever it might be. They have to say, this is what I've been looking for. You know, they feel hopeful that they can resolve the problem.

Fourth thing is it has to be progressive, which means it has to lead them logically to the next step. So you're not going to say, "Hey, download this book". And then on the next step be like, "Hey, come and attend my live event in San Diego", because the gap is not progressive. You're trying to try and take too many steps.

And the final thing is that there has to be risk reversal. And I always see this missing from an offer, which is, if they don't know you, or is this their first kind of step and their first dip in the pond with you, you got to make sure there's no risk. So for example, if you're going to offer someone a book, for example, or an event, or a course, or a PDF, you've got to make sure that for them to download that, there's an offset of the risk that they perceive. So if I say, "Hey, get my free book". People will like "What's the catch? It's a free book" instantly. That's human nature. You know, where's the saber-toothed tiger? Yeah, so my offset to that is if you don't love the book, let me know and you can keep the free course and you can keep the book and let me know. I'll pay a hundred bucks or whatever it might be. That's risk reversal. So that's where I'd start.

Ben Donovan  16:03 
Yeah. Good. Desire, Distinctive, Hope, Progressive, Risk Reversal. All right. It's a good process,

Anthony Kirby  16:11 
Get those five things. You can go back, you can go back to your social media right now and look at the last time you made an offer on social media. If you can't take those five things, I could put good money on it, your offer would have sucked.

Ben Donovan  16:23 
Yeah, that's good. And making good offers is obviously is so essential to making sales in the current climate, you know, in the world we live in today. So it's absolutely essential. In terms of people that you see that are really mastering this, they're doing this well. Are there any, you know, things that they are doing on a regular basis? Obviously, the stuff that you've already said those things, but are there any sort of keys to really mastering this maybe for people that are at the intermediate level that are listening right now? Yeah, okay. I know the idea of cold, warm, hot traffic, you know, give me something juicy, you know, what are the masters of this kind of industry doing?

Anthony Kirby  16:59 
The masters are letting the client pick their own adventure. That's what I'm seeing anyway. I mean, what they're doing is they're saying, "Hey, if you're this kind of person, here's the adventure that you can go on". And they're almost letting the client dictate the journey to a certain extent. And a great resource actually, which, you know, you can go really deep on this stuff, but at a base level at a kind of 30,000-foot view of this. And the "Ask Method" by Ryan Levesque. It's a really good thought process to go through where you think about, you know, the way that you're presenting yourself. And also, again, this comes down to "What have they seen?, What have they heard?, What have they tried?" Yeah. And then secondary to that, what results did they get based on what they've seen, heard and tried. And the final part of that is, how do they feel based on those results? You can get all of that and bundle that into how you show up to your market. They're going to resonate with you much more strongly.

Ben Donovan  17:54 
Definitely yes. I just read, "Choose and Ask", very helpful books I'd definitely recommend to anyone. And then I don't know if you've looked at his because he owns a company called as well. And he says formed around quizzes as like lead magnets. Have you experimented with those much at all?

Anthony Kirby  18:15 
It's funny you say that. I literally just had a couple of clients do the same exercise at the same time as I was doing it in my own business. And so essentially, I have a quiz and I recommend I think they do a 14-day free trial and it's like 50 bucks a month. So it's a little less than And it's a lot simpler for most people to like, kind of get in and do the outcome-based quizzes. And essentially what you want to offer at the end of there again, as the Choose Your Own Adventure, instead of saying, "Hey, book a call with me, it's gonna be the best thing ever", or making that really direct call to action. What you could do depending on the scale of your business, of course, but if you want to keep it really personal and give massive value, one that's working really well for people that I'm working with is to say, "Hey, based on your answers, would you like me to send you a personalized video showing you how you could improve your results?" So then what you would do is they would say "Yes, please". You then pull up their answers, and then you do a personal video. So it would be like, "Hey, Ben, it's Kirby. hope you're well got your answers here. I noticed that you answered no to question four that relates to this topic. Here's what I'd recommend you think about first." And it's really it's prescriptive enough for them without being so face-to-face without feeling salesy. So it's a great touchpoint. And it's that bridge content that I talked about, where you're not just taking people straight to what they perceive as a sales conversation. So you're eliminating that risk. But you're still delivering that massive value. Yeah, great thoughts,

Ben Donovan  19:46 
Great thoughts. It's something that we really want to explore more because, you know, from what we've seen, quizzes are obviously highly engaging, really growing, you know, method of reaching out to people and it covers you know, it can be used right across different industries. As well, whether that is, you know, a coaching business or whether it's an advertising business or a physical product business, you know, a fitness brand could do a fitness quiz and then not generate leads for them to sell fitness but you know, there's so many possibilities with it. So, definitely an interesting topic.

Anthony Kirby  20:16 
Yeah, I mean, I know a company who does boxing of products and we talk to them about doing a quiz relating to, you know, what kind of boxing equipment should you be buying? Are you buying the right equipment? Based on the answers that they give about their style, and their level of skill? All that stuff. So yeah, very, very interesting.

Ben Donovan  20:36 
Yeah, definitely. No, it's good. It's good. What would you say have been the, the main differences, you know, the way the world is sort of moving? You know, the world is moving fast right now. There are lots of changes happening, say the last 12 months or even a prediction into the future. How do you see the marketing world evolving? What I love about what you're saying to me is this whole idea of not being too salesy. Because that was the reason, you know, for a long time I resisted doing marketing, I resisted even creating content because I'm like, I'm not that guy, don't want to be that guy. But then realize that actually by not marketing, I'm kind of robbing people of the products that we value so highly. We're passionate about creating good quality products and training. So by not marketing it, I'm robbing them of it. But then obviously, it's getting that tone right, you know, and so what would you speak to about that changing nature of the tone of marketing?

Anthony Kirby  21:27 
It's a great question. And what my advice would be for people is to remember that I call it the nightclub test. So think about this a lot. Everyone that I've ever said this to, they'll laugh about it because they know it's true, even if we're married or otherwise attached. But imagine if you were single, and you walked into the nearest nightclub, you know, in your town, and you walk up to the bar and you're looking for your suitable mate for the evening, shall we say? And you spot someone across the other side of the bar, and you think "Yep, looks good". And you walk over to that individual and you say, "Hey, my name is Kirby, I've got an Uber outside, let's go". Now what's gonna happen, the likelihood out of 100 people is that you're going to get a slap in the face or drink over your head. And that's what I call the nightclub test. Now, there might be one in 100, who's also on the same mission for that night, who is ready to buy, shall we say? And they'll say, "Sure, let's get an Uber. I'll give it a try". But the chances of that happening are so slim, that it's exhausting to try. So the opposite of that, of course, would be to go into the nightclub and spot somebody you like and go on make an introduction and maybe ask some questions and have a drink and have a dance and then take them for a kebab. And then say, "Hey, I'm not into that. I don't want to take you home in an Uber. I respect this relationship we're building. Let's catch up again". Now the difference is massive, right? Yeah. And yet, we forget that when we go on social media, on the online world, especially, we forget that there's still a human on the other side of it. And we go in like, "Hey, all guns blazing, hey, look how good I am, buy my thing, do this thing". And it's just a nightclub test over again.

Ben Donovan  23:15 
Good, nice, really good marketing advice with dating advice. I love it. Good. Yeah, so this is, you've been super helpful. And I think, really good just to remind people about that whole idea of, you know, different types of audiences. And you know, building that customer journey, like I say, right across different brands, right across different industries. I mean, if you could sort of summarize it into one sort of, you know, golden nugget, I know, it's sometimes difficult to do but one real key takeaway for people that have listened today that can go and implement today, what would that one priority be for you?

Anthony Kirby  23:53 
If I was, let me answer it in two different ways. If I was starting, you know, like, if you haven't been in the market before, and you kind of like "I want to get out there and I want to get my brand out there more". And you want to go out to a cold audience, I would just literally think to myself, what's the one question I get again and again and again. And I would go and make the most epic piece of content you could possibly make around that piece of content. So even if it feels basic to you, it could be there, like, super-advanced for them. And they might be like, "Wow, that's the best thing I've ever heard". Go make that piece of content and go and spend $100. Do an interest targeting on Facebook or LinkedIn, if that's your flavor, and go and put it in front of your audience and let them respond. And you'll see how well engaged that is, right? So that'll be like advice for people who are beginning.

Anthony Kirby  24:39 
If it's someone who's already in the market, and who's already got some runs on the board, the most underutilized asset in the business right now, in any business that I see is that they haven't asked their existing clients what they could do better. They haven't said or the people who didn't buy more importantly, if you say to someone, how many sales calls have you had and they say, well, I've had 10 and you say how many did you close and they say two. Why did the other eight not buy? They'll all tell me the same thing. Either they were too expensive or whatever. And I say, Well, what would work for them? Well, then I don't know. So we'll go and ask them that question, go and say, "Hey, Ben, I know you said that, you know, $10,000 was too expensive. But what would good luck like? Like, what would it take for us to work together? And then you have to be flexible in your approach to get the business. And I guarantee you nine out of 10 people who are listening to this if you go and do that, if you're an established business, and you can't do that to your market right now, bricks and mortar, you know, service-based, whatever, you will get more sales. You'll get more sales in the next seven days with that strategy. That's good. Yeah.

Ben Donovan  25:40 
That's really good. Really, really helpful. And yeah, that perpetual traffic loop. As you know, the whole principle is so needed for any business owner brand builder. And so I'm lucky I really appreciate you. bringing those thoughts has been super, super helpful. If people do want to sort of learn more about you and about this whole process, obviously grab the book, where can they head to To do that,

Anthony Kirby  26:01 
I would say go to And when you get there, you can grab a free copy of the Expert Blueprint book. And you can also get the free online course, also named the Expert Blueprint. You can get both of those straight away. And if you want to know more about all of that, you can go to the as well.

Ben Donovan  26:18 
Awesome. That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. Yeah, super, super useful. And I know it's gonna impact and help a lot of people so we really, really appreciate it.

Anthony Kirby  26:28  
Awesome. Thanks for having me, Ben. Appreciate it.


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