Building Six-Figure Brands Through Diverse Marketing w/ Joe Culley

Uncategorized Aug 10, 2020




In this episode, we sit down with Brand Builder and marketing agency owner Joe Culley.

Joe has built a multiple six-figure physical product brand, along with a successful marketing agency. In our discussion, he shared thoughts around topics such as:

  • How to do influencer marketing the right way in 2020
  • Why email marketing is essential to the long term success of your business
  • What you should look for in order to be inspired and create your best work

And so much more. 

👉 To learn more about Joe, head to:

👉 If you’d like to explore any further training, then feel free to check out our range of free courses here:



Ben Donovan  0:01 
Awesome. Well, welcome to the show today, guys. It's my honor and privilege to have Joe with us here. Welcome to the show today, Joe.

Joe Culley  0:08 
Thank you so much for having me.

Ben Donovan  0:10 
It's our honor. Joe is a digital marketing expert. And so we are going to get some good nuggets out today about how we can build brands, using the power of digital marketing, which I am ready to take notes on a notepad. I'm going to be taking notes. But before we do that Joe, I love to as people come on the show just to help our audience get to know you a little bit more, I love to ask a couple of icebreaker questions. So I've got a couple for you today. Firstly, do you have a favorite quote? And if so, what is it?

Joe Culley  0:40 
My favorite quote is "One day at a time" because I just get so caught up in the day to day you know, like that. I got to do the next thing and it's just it's all about like, okay, let's just focus on today. So that's my favorite quote.

Ben Donovan  0:51 
Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. And then a bit more of an interesting one. If you could time travel right - if you could go forwards or backwards, this is one I love asking people because the way people think about this is so interesting, fascinating. Would you go forwards or backwards, to what point in time and why?

Joe Culley  1:08 
Definitely backwards to the 80s. Because the 80s were amazing. I mean, I was not alive for them. But I mean, come on from every movie. I'm definitely missing something. So I'm going backwards.

Ben Donovan  1:19 
The movies, the music so much to look back on in the 80s. I love that answer. That's awesome. Well, let's dive into it hey. So, talk to us a little bit about your origins. You know, I know part of what you've done is build a successful brand of physical products, which is a big part of what our audience will be up to. So talk a bit about that and where you're kind of up to today. how you got started in business, all that kind of stuff.

Joe Culley  1:44 
Yeah, so in 2015, I was in college, and I'd stopped working because I was supposed to be, my family wanted me to focus on college; however, I was incredibly bored with school. So I was like, "What can I do?" And one thing I always liked was phone cases. I was always changing my phone case like 10 times a day. It was like my way of accessorizing I guess. So I was like, I want to design phone cases. So I started doing dropshipping phone cases with my designs on them. And I grew it off of Instagram. And after a couple years, it was one heck of a process because I was pretty much hiring people, you know, whether it was building my website, whether it was taking photos or doing my social media, and every time I hired someone I was like really unhappy because it was really expensive, somehow I got the really expensive people and also, they weren't in tune with what I wanted. So I was like, Okay, I hired someone to take my photos. I didn't love it. So I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna buy a camera. I'm gonna learn how to take photos.

Someone built my website. I wasn't a huge fan of what they did. And I wanted to customize more. Now I got to learn how to build websites with Squarespace. So it was just like, and the same thing happened with social media. So as I kind of grew that company and brought on team members to help me, I started figuring out, you know, that I built a company and a brand pretty much off of social media, primarily Instagram. And what I then did is I was kind of getting a little bit bored and a little stagnant. And I was talking to my team members, and I was like, you know, I built this company, and I did it off of, you know, my digital marketing strategies, I guess you could say, why can't I do this for others? And, you know, so I started working with clients with email marketing, Instagram management, Facebook management. And I then kind of that was about three years ago, and for the past three years, I've been kind of splitting my time between Culley Co. which is my accessories brand and the Social Dash which is my digital marketing agency. And my team hates me because I'm constantly pulling them in different directions that I'm like, Okay, we've got to work on this. Now. We got to work on this. But it's, you know, it is what it is and I love it. So, yeah.

Ben Donovan  4:02 
I can certainly relate to that for sure. Yeah. It's good. I mean, I would love to explore that maybe towards the back end of the interview. Because I think there'll be people listening, that would be running one type of business, physical product business maybe and like the idea of a service agency or creating an online course or something like that. That would be interesting to get your views on that as well. But first, let's dig into the brand, right? Because correct me if I'm wrong, but that's something that you're still running to this day? The product? Because I love people that are in the trenches doing what they're talking about, you know. So yeah, it's really, really good. talk to us a little bit about that, then because you have like you said, you've built that brand with social media mainly and some digital marketing beyond that. Talk to us about that initial strategy. You mentioned Instagram was a big play for that brand. Was that organic? Was that paid? Talk to us a bit about that.

Joe Culley  5:03 
It was definitely a combination. In the beginning, it was 100% organic, and then it got into, you know, promoting posts and Facebook ads and things like that. But in the beginning, you know, I didn't understand Instagram at all, like I was a high school student using Instagram, however, then, you know, as I went to college as then I, you know, was focusing on my business I didn't really like I knew Instagram, like, "Okay, I'm gonna upload a picture". But I didn't know how to actually use it to gain an audience, gain a following. So what I kind of slowly figured out was I was studying the bigger accounts that I loved. You know, these lifestyle brands that I like really admired. And what I figured out is they're not selling you just a picture of their phone case against the wall, and they're not like buy my product. What they're doing is they're selling you a lifestyle. And for me, it wasn't a matter of I'm going to sell you my product. It's I'm going to sell you my lifestyle. So my Instagram is actually mostly photos of myself or friends of mine. And you know, it's products sprinkled in, because I'm not trying to sell you on my products. I'm trying to sell you on what you're going to feel when you're holding the phone case or what you're going to feel when you have the camera strap on your camera and you're taking pictures on the East Coast, you know, you're going to be part of this. So it started off organic and I started gaming, you know, pretty quickly because people were relating to the photos that I was taking. And it was all like very preppy, you know, New England vibes. What then started happening was, Instagram started getting supersaturated, and it was not this super easy place to grow anymore. And I was starting to dabble with, this was like two years in. And I started dabbling with promoting posts and I got hooked. Mostly not because of the likes or anything like that; I never cared about the likes or the followers. For me, this is what I tell clients, it's not about your lifestyle or your followers, it's about are you actually converting? So for me, I was converting, and people were going to the link in my bio, my website, they were buying the products. So I was more than happy to dump money into promoted posts. Um, you know, and now I'm pretty much just, you know, promoting older posts of mine today, and I'm not posting as much. I'm not creating as much content today. But for a long time, it was pumping out content promoting content, and it was what I had to do, you know, and that's how I built it.

Ben Donovan  7:36 
Yeah, it's interesting. you referenced that because there's certainly a bit of change in the last few years in terms of organic you know, even for Facebook pages. Facebook, a long time ago, encourages people to build your page and get people to like your page. Now, nobody sees anything you post on your page, and so these algorithmic changes have certainly pushed people in direction of paid promotion, so it would be interesting to delve into that transition you made, how you went about that, and then know how people can use that today to get started with paid traffic on Instagram. So what was your sort of overall strategy with that?

Joe Culley  8:10 
So my strategy really started off as, okay, I want to get people to see my product., I want people that are following me to see my products. I want everyone to see what I'm selling. I want everyone to be a part of this. And, you know, when I first started dabbling in promoted posts, it was really all about that for me. You know, I started noticing and it also had to do with I had friends of mine, they were promoting posts for $20 just to get more likes. And for me, it was like I'm dumping $100 in or $150 or $200, because I am looking more towards really getting. You know, I'm not doing this automatic audience kind of thing. I'm doing like a manual selected audience. I'm really diving into what my customer's interests are. And I really had to explore what it was that worked and it took a good year of experimentation and a lot of money. But I figured out exactly who my audience was. I built out a couple different profiles, I started promoting different audiences two different times a year. And I figured out you know, this is what I needed to do to grow on Instagram in 2019, 2020. And it kind of stinks because I was a part of it when you could just use hashtags and I was a part of it when you could just like have some influencers post about your product. And now it's like no, that's gone. That's gone. You know what I mean? But it's working so you're okay with it.

Ben Donovan  9:39 
What are your thoughts on Instagram influencer marketing?

Joe Culley  9:43 
So I've actually worked as an Instagram influencer on a couple different campaigns. I've worked with Brooks Brothers. And you know, I think Instagram influencer marketing and this is not just because I've worked as one. I think it's amazing, I really do. You know, I think that basically getting influencers that actually care about your product is what's important. You can't just throw money at an influencer and expect or throw free products to an influencer and expect them to post about you and it's gonna work. You have to find the perfect influencers. And it's kind of like how you're building a lifestyle brand if you are. You have to make sure that you're finding people that embody that lifestyle. So even if you're not building a lifestyle brand, finding influencers that actually match the vibe of your products, or match the feel of your brand, you know. And if you don't have a feel for your brand, you need to get one immediately. But you know, I think influencer marketing is super powerful, and especially in 2020. If you're not using influencers, you're missing out completely.

Ben Donovan  10:47 
Right. And do you have a process that you go through to sort of find these influencers to sort through them? Yeah.

Joe Culley  10:54 
Yeah. So what I do is I basically find similar brands. And I kind of find like two or three other brands, that I feel like are similar to my own. And even if they're, you know, 80%, similar or 60% similar, that's all that matters. And I kind of look at who they're using. And I try to get similar people that feel like that. So what I do is I, you know, you have to spend a lot of time on Instagram, and you have to find people that are engaging with other people's posts that are similar to your page, and you have to basically steal them. And I'm not even talking about the influencers, I'm talking about just the followers, you know, you have to engage with those followers. And sometimes those followers might be influencers. So for me, I would look at you know, and I'm just going to use, you know, add on Instagram the account @abcd. So, okay, @abcd is similar to my account, culleyco. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to then see who's liking their posts, who's following them, who's got a significant amount of followers. And I'm also going to make sure that they're getting a good amount of engagement with their following, like I don't just want some random follower, or I'm sorry, some random influencer, and I want to make sure that they're legitimate. I want to make sure that they actually didn't just buy their followers. Yeah.

Ben Donovan  12:13 
What would you do in 2020? What would you say is a good engagement rate? Because I think that is a concern for a lot of people. So easy to inflate numbers.

Joe Culley  12:23 
It's a tough one. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's tough because the thing is, no one is getting the engagement they got, you know, like, the engagement rate has really dropped. You know, like, years ago, I even have friends that used to be influencers, and they used to get, you know, years ago, they used to get more likes than they do now. And, you know, I feel like nowadays, a good engagement rate is honestly like, you know, listen, if you're getting 5%, good for you. If you're, you know, that's amazing. But you know, I think, listen if you have 10,000 followers, and you're getting 500 likes, you're doing a good job. Let me just say that.

Ben Donovan  13:01 
Yeah, no, that's good. I mean, obviously, it's not an exact science, is it? You know, it's just Yeah. Because I know a lot of people listening to this, you know, will go. And because it's a question we get in our community a lot we talk about influencer marketing on Instagram. And you know, so it's good criteria for someone that's obviously done it successfully. Just to give us a guideline of Hey, look, when we're looking for an influencer, what is a good engagement rate? So no, it's definitely helpful. And then obviously, Instagram is like a different beast of Facebook in terms of the paid side of it, because there's not as much flexibility I suppose, you know, with Instagram. So how have you managed that transition to pay traffic? What kind of things have you been doing? You talked about sponsored, sponsoring the post or boosting the posts? Would they just be posted within the news feed? What was your strategy there?

Joe Culley  13:54 
It's all about you know, for me, my goal is getting new customers. So I just want people that have my interest to see my posts. So, you know, I've really honestly done more Instagram sponsored posts that I've done Facebook ads on just because I'm pumping out a lot more content on Instagram than I am to Facebook. Facebook is really just getting the leftover stuff, or the extra stuff from the photoshoots. So for me, you know, I'm really you know, and you also hit it kind of on the head, you're not able to customize Instagram as much so it is a little bit more difficult. However, you know, I think having multiple audiences on your Instagram promoted posts had it like being able to promote to multiple audiences. So okay, I create a custom audience, audience one and that's only males in New York City. And then I have audience two, and that's females who like Lilly Pulitzer because I have a very preppy brand. So females who like Lilly Pulitzer, and according to the post, I promote specifically to a certain audience. So I create custom audiences. And if you're not creating custom audiences, if you go to promote on Instagram and you go to promote to people that are like my followers, you're wasting your money completely. Like, I don't know who Instagram promoted to, but it's just people in, you know, a country so far away from you. It's a waste of money. So you have to do custom. But I think creating custom audiences is the biggest, the biggest tip I can give.

Ben Donovan  15:28 
Yeah, definitely. No, it's really, really helpful. And then do you set those up from within just from your phone? Or do you go in through the ads manager? How do you do practice? I know we can be practical here but just for beginners.

Joe Culley  15:39 
No, no, no. So I mean, in the beginning, I did it all through my phone. In the beginning, I did it all through my phone, and I did it according to each post. And, you know, in the beginning, I wasn't using like Later or, you know, scheduling apps. Let's say I wasn't using scheduling apps in the beginning. So it was a lot more like "Okay, I'm posting a photo at noon. I'm going to go and I'm like, hey, let me promote this and see what happens". And, you know, then it got a little bit more strategic. And it was like, and now I'm at the point where I am using the ads manager, but I, you know, there are still some times where it's like, I know, like, today, I've got a post that I'm going to be promoting at six o'clock pm. So you know, I'm going to be doing that just going to my phone, going to the post, and you know, promoting it. You know, hitting promote a post and whatever. But most of the time it is much more planned out, and it is much more strategic. Let me say that.

Ben Donovan  16:35 
Yeah, for sure. But, you know, from what you're saying, you know, it's relatively simple for beginners to get started.

Joe Culley  16:41 
Oh, my gosh, yeah. I mean, basically, if you just go on your phone, and you go to Instagram, and you click on your post, as long as your business account or creator account, and you hit promote on the post, you're able to really, you can take it from there. And then you can choose where you want people to go. It's pretty great. In the beginning, I was just directing people to my profile, because I didn't understand it. But, you know, once I started realizing, you can direct them to your website, or whatever it got a lot simpler. But I mean, it's very user friendly. Let me say that. And I definitely recommend using it on your phone, Instagram app versus ads manager, because the ads manager is a lot more complicated in my opinion.

Ben Donovan  17:22 
Yeah, for sure. In terms of getting started with it, so there's a lot less barrier to entry, you know, just your phones. That's good. So then obviously, over time, the great thing obviously, is like you say, you've built that brand using these strategies it works, then you've obviously diversified a little bit in terms of your marketing strategy. Talk to us a bit about that. Are you solely on Instagram now, or what else are you doing to sort of compliment that?

Joe Culley  17:48 
So if I could do only two things, I'll tell you everything I'm doing. But if I could only do two things, I would choose Instagram and I would choose is email marketing. And you know, I'm doing Facebook. I'm doing very, very little on Twitter. I think Twitter is useless for what I'm doing. You know, when you're trying to build a product brand, unless you're incredibly witty, which I mean, I can be like you know, once a month I can be incredibly witty, otherwise, I'm just boring. So Twitter is not for me.

I'm on Tik Tok now, which is a learning curve. It's really hard, really hard. But I mean, I love it, I think it's so entertaining. But at this time, like what I really focus on is email marketing, because that's where I've noticed over the past, I'd say a year and a half. That's where a lot more of my sales are coming from. And so I've been collecting emails for years and years and years and years. And for year one and year two, I didn't do email marketing because I didn't understand it. And I didn't know how to do it effectively. And I thought it was just building an email campaign in MailChimp, you know, in year three. So I was like, okay, it's very simple. And then I realized like, this is so boring and this is so tasteless and just using the Arial font or the Times New Roman font, like, it just was so boring. So then I started getting a lot more complex with it. And like this is one of the things I do with clients is I don't just build email campaigns by using, you know, the template builders or whatever, I actually go into Photoshop. And I actually build, you know, I take an image that I took of my phone case, and I'll put a custom font on it and I'll put a witty little slogan, and I'll say shop now at the bottom, but like, I'm building this custom campaign and the conversion rate from that as compared to just using a build, create a template from MailChimp, is like, significantly higher. I don't have a number for you. But all I know is it's incredible. So, email marketing, especially when you're working with your own photos, not stock images. It's an incredible tool. It's an incredible tool, but between Instagram and email marketing, I am very, very happy,

Ben Donovan  20:00 
I think you've hit the nail on the head, you know with and that's something I'm trying to communicate more and more to the people we're working with is email marketing. It's certainly not a thing of the past, it's actually a valuable asset in your business.

Joe Culley  20:15 
It's so valuable and like, it's interesting, because anytime I'm talking to anyone about marketing, the first thing I bring up besides social media is email marketing. I think email marketing is actually stronger than paid ads sometimes. And I'll say that because if you have an audience of a thousand people or even 500 people, those are people that opted in on your website, because they clearly are interested in your product, unless it's completely by accident, or someone signed up their mother because they didn't feel like giving their email. 90% of the time you're getting people that already are somewhat interested in your product. So you know, you have a little bit of a leg up on them and if you can really, you know, make sure that you're providing somewhat of value to them, you're winning, let me say that. But you have to provide value, that is really important. You can't just be like, "Buy my product".

Ben Donovan  21:13 
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, but I think that's the same as all marketing. Hey, these days, you know, you've got to create value. You can't just consistently pitch. You got to, like you said, create that idea of the lifestyle that you want people to have. I think that was really a really great point. And so talk to us then about the marketing agency side of things, because it is something that I think like I say, a lot of people will like the idea of diversifying and is often put around on particularly on Instagram. You know, the average millionaire has seven sources of income, right? And so people will consider, "Hey, what's a different business I could start once I've built systems and team in place here? What else could I do? Talk to me about the, you know, the tension of that and how you're managing that.

Joe Culley  21:59 
So it's actually kind of interesting because in the beginning, I was incredibly nervous to actually create a legitimate company, like an actual agency, if you want to call it that. And what I consider an agency is like I have, you know, like two to three people working with you. And, you know, you actually have more than four clients. But like, for me, I was really nervous to do that. And the reason I was nervous is because I had this company over here, Culley Co. We just hit six figures and you know, like, I had two people working with me and I was afraid that A - if I started focusing my energy elsewhere, this would go down. Or B - I was afraid that people would see it, as you know, he must not be doing pretty well over there. Or he must, you know, he must be giving up on that and he must be doing this and I didn't want people to also see me like, you know, the people on Instagram that are models, actresses, their lawyers, they also happen to be a dentist and they also wash your car on Tuesdays. But you know, those people like their Instagram bio is like their resume, like those people really annoyed me and I didn't want to be one of those people who had like 16,000 things going on, like, I didn't want to sell you a used car and also tell you to buy my, you know, gold bars. So I was really nervous about that.

Joe Culley  23:14 
And I hired a business coach, and she pretty much said to me, like, "Okay, you already have two clients, you know, because I had two clients at the time, I just was afraid to legitimize it. And she's like, you have two clients, you're getting paid by them. Your accountant's going to kill you because you're billing all under the same you know, company and like, you know, you need to actually, build a website, legitimize this, like you're never actually going to build this into something unless you actually, you know, believe in it. And so I built a website, gave it an Instagram page. And I just recently did that like, you know, within last year. However, it was funny because when I built it, I had at the time five clients, five retainer clients and I was still billing them all under Culley Co. like it was ridiculous.

I just was too afraid to like actually legitimize it. And when I legitimized it, everything changed. It kind of exploded. I had to hire another person. I'm sorry, I had to, you know, basically, I couldn't handle what was happening, because it just started growing and growing and growing, obviously in a great way. But like, you know, I started focusing on "How can I better this? How can I make this legitimate? So I think if you do have one source of income, and you're like, "Hey, I kind of have this talent that I could teach people about, or whether it's an online course, or whether it's, you know, anything really, I think that you should definitely, without a doubt, you know, open up that door and go after it because you're just there's money that's being left on the table.

Ben Donovan  24:59 
Yeah, definitely. I think You know, once you've learned how to build a team, build systems and structure, you can replicate that out, right?

Joe Culley  25:06 
Yeah. But I will say it's funny because I have five people that work with me in total. And two of them work for both companies, because they're just really, really good. And they were like, one of them is actually, he just became my partner in Culley Co. And, you know I was like, he started off as an intern, he worked his way up because he was amazing. And, you know, he kind of helps me out because, you know, there are some people that you just can't, you know, you need a lot from them. Let me say that. Sure. I mean, I think having a team is really, really, really important. In the beginning, obviously, you know, it doesn't make sense to have a team if you have one client, but you know, having a team is the greatest thing because I was so against it in the beginning, and I was like, "Why do I need people?" You know, I can do this all to myself, and then I was literally packing orders for you know 50 phone cases and I'm like this is the stupidest thing I've ever done like I should be having someone do this so I can actually scale. You know it just doesn't make sense and so you know once you have the team opening up and actually not being resistant to it is the greatest thing I just wish I was less resistant.

Ben Donovan  26:25 
I mean yeah, I relate to that so much because it's the same journey. You know, it's like yeah, we have this to ourselves. I remember the times, a couple of years ago, of me and my wife on our kitchen table packing up different things to ship into, you know, to like warehouses and all this kind of stuff. I have fond memories of those days because it's like "Oh the entrepreneurial spirit" I also have negative, you know, of my back aching at midnight and I wanted to go to bed. You know, so it's been very important and that's probably a bit of a silly example because that's one area but there are so many other areas that, you know, as entrepreneurs, we do need to delegate. And it's such a massive key for growth. And so, obviously, you're discovering that and one of my next question is going to be, you know, what are the tensions that you've experienced in doing those two things together, but sounds like potentially, that's part of what that big tension has been.

Joe Culley  27:22 
Yeah, I would definitely say, I would definitely say, um, but I mean, I will, I will just say that I feel like, for me, it started off as, you know, I didn't know how to delegate and I didn't know how to, you know, "What can I take off my shoulders and give to others?" And luckily, I just got really good people around me. And they were able to kind of just be like, "Nope, I'm going to do this." And "no, I'm going to do that." You don't have to worry about that. I'm going to take care of that. And thank God for that because I was like, now I'm really I have to say, I've gotten a lot better and I am good at like, you know, knowing "Okay, I'm going to teach Habi to do this. I'm going to teach Queen to do this". So whatever, and I'm not going to worry about this anymore. But ultimately, like, I was horrific at that in the beginning, I will say that I was horrific

Ben Donovan  28:10 
Yeah, I know, it's a journey for all of us. I think, you know, we don't get taught entrepreneurship in school, you know. So it's a journey. Hey listen, you've been super, super helpful. If you could give a sort of one bit of advice to brand owners, specifically product brand owners because I know a lot of the listeners. Yeah. Both. In terms of starting that journey with you. I think a lot of them will maybe worry about paying for advertising, going to pay promotions, that kind of thing. It's a nerve-racking thing, right? If you could give one bit of advice to help someone, take what I've talked about today, and then go and action it. What do you think that would be?

Joe Culley  28:48 
My best piece of advice would be and this is the thing that helps me the most and still helps me today. Find two to three companies that you really, really admire. Listen, I admire Ralph Lauren or I admire, you know, Target, but I'm not, you know, I'm looking, I'm talking about like, find specific companies that relate to you and your niche. And find those companies and study what they've done, study how they became successful. And it's not maybe, it's not written about her talk about the internet, but study what they're doing on social media, study what they're doing with their email campaigns. And, you know, start to think of yourself on the same level of those companies and figure out ways to do the same things that they do. And if you're able to, you know, take and copy their success, then you will eventually find yourself rivaling those companies. So, you know, start small even if it is with let's say paid promotions, start small see what works for you. Maybe paid campaigns aren't going to work for your company, but dumping $20 and see if you get even a little blurb, and if you do then dump in $40 and anytime you have that extra little budget, which is what I used to do. I used to just whenever I had extra money, I would dump it in, and I would see what worked and what didn't work. And, you know, it's not just with paid campaigns, figure out what works for your company, and realize that, you know, it's going to be a ton of work. But called being an entrepreneur,

Ben Donovan  30:22 
It certainly is and you know, the proof is in the pudding, to see what you've built with it and to see that that's a success story of what you've been talking about. So, yeah, listen Joe, we really appreciate all the thoughts you brought, and, you know, the encouragement, I think is going to encourage a lot of entrepreneurs to really explore that area some more and see some success with that. So that's exciting to look forward to. If people do want to sort of reach out and see what you do as either a marketing agency or see more about your brand, where can they find you?

Joe Culley  30:54 
So you can find me @culleyco on Instagram, or is my website. You can kind of find everything from there.

Ben Donovan  31:08 
That's awesome. Yeah, a lot of people will definitely do that, I'm sure and get some inspiration from there so yeah. Thanks so much for coming on again. And yeah, wish you all the best for culleyco and marketing agency and I'm sure it's just going to keep on going from strength to strength.

Joe Culley  31:22 
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it was fun.

Ben Donovan  31:24  
No worries. Awesome.


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